Posts by Marvin Shilmer

73

Elders removed in Northern PA. Congregation

by ToesUp in

jw
friends

a close family member just informed me what happened during their last c.o.

visit.

this occurred 3 months ago.

Marvin Shilmer

It's happened before:

http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/06/autonomous-just-remove-them.html

95

Michael Brown verdict discussion policy - take II

by Simon in

i had originally thought that making the rules clear about what was and wasn't going to be allowed when discussing the michael brown verdict that we'd be able to avoid some of the unpleasantness that surrounded the subsequent trayvon martin trial discussions.. michael brown verdict discussion policy.

i had hoped that once the evidence came out there would not be as many people promoting opinions that contradicted it.

unfortunately, that appears to have been naive of me.

Marvin Shilmer

If the justice system decides someone is innocent then you cannot come on here and claim that they are guilty.
If the justice system decides someone is guilty then you cannot come on here and claim that they are innocent.

Hi Simon. Looks like I'm late to this discussion. But for whatever it's worth here's my two cents:

I read your remarks to mean participants have to respect decisions of the court. My observation, and the reason for quoting what I do above, is that often courts do not find a person innocent but, rather, not guilty as charged. And, in each case a court's finding is strictly toward how a defendant was charged.

A finding of not guilty as charged does not mean a person is innocent but, rather, that the court did not find enough evidence to find them guilty as charged. There is presumption of innocence in the US court system that also has to be respected. Hence a finding of not guilty as charged means the court presumes a defendant is innocent of the legal charge against them. But this presumption by the court only extends to what a person is charged with by the judicial system and the judicial system does not get into issues that are strictly ethical or moral. Hence a defendant could be found not guilty as charged (read: presumed innocent as charged) yet not be found innocent of some profound ethical or moral breach that has negative impact on a community.

So my question is this:

Does your revamped policy allow us to discuss issues related to the Wilson-Brown incident that the court is silent on, so long as we respect what the court did decide?

32

How would you respond to this defense made on behalf of The Watchtower's Child Abuse lawsuits?

by adjusted knowledge in

details of the society's child abuse policies have been published in jehovah's witnesses' publications, although more specific guidelines are only made available to elders, or on request.

press releases issued by the watch tower society's office of public information confirm that if a person accused of molestation repeatedly denies the charges of his victim, and there is no other witness to the incident, "the elders cannot take action within the congregation at that time", but would report to authorities if required by local laws.

our families jehovahs witnesses and child protection.

Marvin Shilmer

During the past few years the Watchtower Society has made some improvements to its policies related to allegations of child abuse.

Currently the single biggest flaw in Watchtower's policy related to child abuse is that it NEVER comes right out and ENCOURAGES that victims of child abuse and parents/guardians of victims of child abuse report the allegation to local law enforcement authorities.

This omission is significant and noteworthy because the Watchower organization teaches its adherents to look to it for guidance on matters of life and living it.

So...

How would I respond to this defense made on behalf of The Watchtower's Child Abuse lawsuits?

I'd respond by asking whoever presents this defense WHY the Watchtower organization has so far failed to come out and actually encourage JWs to report allegations of child abuse to law enforcement authorities?

After all, if a JW reports allegation of child abuse to his or her local elders they must give some credence to the accusation. Right? So why not encourage the SAME JW to also report the allegation to local law enforcement so that other children at risk in the same neighborhood have some chance of being protected from a potential predator? Doesn't the Bible tell us to love our neighbors AS WE LOVE OURSELVES?

20

Why dont U.S. JW's Celelbrate Thanksgiving

by stan101 in

i remeber the old young people ask book had an entry that explained why each holiday was bad.

i was searching for it today on jw.org and it looks like the new young people ask has ommited that section.

im just curiouse why jw's dont celebrate the holiday..

Marvin Shilmer

Happy Thanksgiving—Watchtower Style!

http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/11/happy-thanksgiving-watchtower-style.html

551

Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon in

after a thorough investigation and weighing of the evidence the grand jury has decided not to indict the officer.. the reaction so far seems as predicted - people refuse to accept that the result represents justice despite claims that is what they wanted.. there is now violence and vandalism, including gunshots.

let's hope the police contain the troublemakers.. .

Marvin Shilmer

You then pointed out that it was "separated by paragraphs"; but as this direct quote shows, the structure of the paragraphs imply equivlalence because of the direct parallel, by the structure of the writing and sentence/paragraph/word relationships. When a sentence follows another like that, in that structure, that's a descriptive statement.

Pacopoolio,

There you go again. Rather than answering for yourself you instead depend on a supposed implication that fits your desired end. Another fallacy.

You're having a discussion with yourself.

If you want substantive discussion with someone who cares and is willing to engage on logical terms then ask questions of things you read without transposing your views onto what is expressed and then attempting to refute THAT.

What you do here is stunning to watch! Even AFTER me telling you in exactly SO MANY words that what you attribute to me is false you still regress to excusology by depending on a supposed implication DESPITE being asked to read what is LITERALLY expressed!

Do you know the difference between what is literally said versus what is said by implication? What you're doing is amazing to watch!!!

My recommendation is that you reboot and start over. I don't have time for games.

551

Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon in

after a thorough investigation and weighing of the evidence the grand jury has decided not to indict the officer.. the reaction so far seems as predicted - people refuse to accept that the result represents justice despite claims that is what they wanted.. there is now violence and vandalism, including gunshots.

let's hope the police contain the troublemakers.. .

Marvin Shilmer

You're going to ignore the entire quoted information that directly supports part of my assertion because of a mistype? Are you trying to share ideas and have a discussion, or do "gotchas" to look like you won an argument on the Internet?

Pacopoolio,

Respectfully, it is unrealistic to expect readers to decide what is or is not a typographical error in what you write. More to the point, I have no idea whether you mistyped or whether you're now claiming a typo realizing your original assertion is shown to be a blatant falsehood!!! Moreover, I don't care one way or another because I have no inclination to "win" an argument--whatever THAT is supposed to mean.

My interest is in examining the subject at hand. Part of examining a subject is examining what people bring to the table in terms of evidence and logical argumentation based on that evidence. Hence I ask questions and ask for evidence.

So far what I've seen from you is fallacious use of strawman argumentation and, more recently, an offering of evidence that spoke contrary to your assertion. Of the latter you say what you asserted was a typo. Fine. That does not change your other fallacious method, one you bothered to make an assertion of toward me that to date is left unevidenced. What you've demonstrated in this discussion is not what is expected from a person who appeals to scientific means and methods. Frankly, I've relegated things coming from you to a point where I nearly pay no attention. Make of that whatever you will. I don't care. I'm here for the subject not the personalities.

Tell you what, when you get around to proving the assertions you made of my earlier statements--and I'm SURE you know precisely what I'm talking about--then you and I have more to talk about.

551

Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon in

after a thorough investigation and weighing of the evidence the grand jury has decided not to indict the officer.. the reaction so far seems as predicted - people refuse to accept that the result represents justice despite claims that is what they wanted.. there is now violence and vandalism, including gunshots.

let's hope the police contain the troublemakers.. .

Marvin Shilmer

Then we can note how black children under 10 are less likely to be viewed as children and less innocent as compared to white children: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf

Pacopoolio,

I selected the first peer reviewed paper you offered to see if it supports your assertion that "black children under 10 are less likely to be viewed as children and less innocent as compared to white children"

Your source DOES NOT support your assertion.

For example, your cited source (above) offers evidence that children under 10 are seen as EQUALLY INNOCENT regardless of race!!!

Get your facts straight, and for goodness sakes READ your own cited sources before you have others spend time reading them for something they never say and, in fact, DISPUTE!!!

551

Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon in

after a thorough investigation and weighing of the evidence the grand jury has decided not to indict the officer.. the reaction so far seems as predicted - people refuse to accept that the result represents justice despite claims that is what they wanted.. there is now violence and vandalism, including gunshots.

let's hope the police contain the troublemakers.. .

Marvin Shilmer

You defined "gang wear" as a hoodie drawn across the face. That's not a strawman - that's the subject of the assertion in itself.

Are you backpeddling out of that statement or do you still define gang wear as guy in a hoodie? I need to know those specifics before I attack it directly.

Pacopoolio,

There is nothing to backpeddle about. I have not defined "gang wear" as a hoodie drawn across the face. (Ref. my post 3293)

Defining "gang wear" as a hoodie drawn across the face is a strawman in relation to what I've actually said.

Do youi understand the concept of pararaph? If so, then take another look at what I have actually said. Its on page 13 of this discussion at my post number 3293. Please refrain from transposing your ideas onto what I've written and, instead, read what I've written literally.

551

Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon in

after a thorough investigation and weighing of the evidence the grand jury has decided not to indict the officer.. the reaction so far seems as predicted - people refuse to accept that the result represents justice despite claims that is what they wanted.. there is now violence and vandalism, including gunshots.

let's hope the police contain the troublemakers.. .

Marvin Shilmer

If white people went round with their jeans round their knees people would think they were some sexual deviant.

I observe white and black people dressing like that. It's a fad. It's sloppy and self-disrespecting. At least that's my view.

When I see folks dressed like that I don't think "sexual deviant". I think "If that poor fool lives into adulthood they'll burn every picture of themselves dressed like that!"

551

Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon in

after a thorough investigation and weighing of the evidence the grand jury has decided not to indict the officer.. the reaction so far seems as predicted - people refuse to accept that the result represents justice despite claims that is what they wanted.. there is now violence and vandalism, including gunshots.

let's hope the police contain the troublemakers.. .

Marvin Shilmer

Saying "slavery happened to everyone at one point in history" denies the demographic-social effect that having slavery and segregation affect a VISUALLY DISTINCT people, so close in history, has.

Glad near-history didn't get in the way of Irish, Italian and Japanese Americans who were, in each case, treated like dirt outside their own communities.

Here's another fact of American history that bears pointing out: Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffered and died in one of the world's bloodiest wars in order to end slavery as it existed at the time. And, I'm not talking about rebels who repudiated the US government and supported the mid-19th century rebellion. The patriots who suffered and died to end slavery were supported by untold millions of additional patriots whose tax dollars and real goods were fully put to the cause.

And today what do we find being talked about as an excuse? Slavery. Guess what? Patriotic Americans died to give blacks a better opportunity in life. Make something of this gift that people of other nations did not for the most part bother to do for its populace. If the black community wants relief from crime and all it does to reduce its culture then start by DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT inside your own community. Do not tolerate poor behavior. Report criminals. PUBLICALLY announce that is what is going to be done and then DO IT. If enough blacks do this then crime and all that comes with it will be significantly reduced within that community. Othewise little will change because non-black communities are working on their own problems and other communities' problems (including the black community) will be treated secondarily.